Date of Birth: 06/11/1937
Place of birth: Kiselevsk
not fit into the rotation
- Vadim Viktorovich, could you tell us a bit about yourself, about family, about your career.
- We can assume that I am a child of industrialization. Born in 1937 in Kuzbass mines under construction in the village. And Siberian father, mountain surveyor, and mother kaluzhanka, a surgeon, had been sent to this construction. I myself, having finished in 1960 "Sibstrin", he became a builder, worked in the Kuzbass. In my opinion, this is the best of the professions. Party work, for which I was sent in 1973, has also been associated with the construction.
- When Gorbachev invited you to Moscow (as, by the way, was it?), What feelings you experienced? What kind of person he seemed to you then?
- In Moscow, the first time I was invited not Gorbachev and Ligachev. It was in 1983, when Andropov. I worked as an inspector of the Central Committee, and was to be ready at any time to go to any place where the party will send. In March 1985, Mikhail Gorbachev`s party in the face (it was our first meeting) sent me in the Kirov region. It was a good time, and we all, CC Inspector (and the set of the now well-known names), evaluated Gorbachev almost ecstatically. He did not look like the usual Secretary General: emancipated frames, made to think it possible to argue, to disagree with him. Another thing is that, as it turned out, listen, he does not always heard. And all of us are not smart enough to understand the danger of easy, "Bolshevik" approach is definitely needed restructuring.
- Are not you embarrassed, then, that, becoming interior minister, you descend into the abyss? I mean the crime, punishment system, the tears of victims?
- I have not plunged into this abyss. Police Work - necessary, useful to society - has been very interesting to me. Unfortunately, it we have little understanding of, and yet it has a great humanistic component, or, shall we say, potential. Gorbachev is nothing concrete in the appointment did not say, noting only that it does not need a policeman and politician, has promised support. He knew that today do not understand it all: one police (prosecutor`s office, court, etc.) crime never cope. Since it must fight both the state and society.
- Do you have someone to fire, demote, that is, to get tough? You do people a hard or soft?
- Yes, of course, necessary. And I`m hard or soft - it depends on the circumstances. When you have to be hard - hard.
- And now the KGB. How did you feel the first time going into that building? In whose office sitting?
- Do not feel. Consider the situation: yesterday failed coup, staff was completely demoralized. Crowds far Democrats rushed into the building rocked monuments from all sides "planted" information ... Job swept once. And in whose cabinet sat? Of course, the chairman (Yezhov, Beria, Andropov - VN).
- I think you said at the time: "I have come to destroy this organization." Looking back, do not you think this statement naive? For vengeance is not long in coming, do not you?
- These are the words of my book. They are today often recall the so-called "patriots". But they are a book, and not only are they probably have not read. Because the most important task was to get rid of the KGB as a "sword and shield" parties, both from the party of the secret police of the party state, but to preserve and reform the security services as such, adapting them to a completely new, "posleputchevym" Under the new union (!) Netotalitarnogo state. The biggest challenge came with the Russian leadership. After the RSFSR has never had its KGB, it was necessary to create it on the basis of the Union, but to preserve the structures that perform the basic functions. Formally, the organization, the work was carried out in a very short time. The system does not work just because someone interfered with Gorbachev, and for this decided to put an end to the Union. Looking back, I can say that the structure of the security services on the basis of the old KGB for a new, democratic Union was created correctly. And the fact that all these years I have poison zheltenkie a newspaper - what can you do? They paid for it. All that I have done, I have always done openly - not hiding and do not intend to run. If something wrong, there prosecutor. All the lies about the allegedly issued secret listening devices is not worth a brass farthing. This "secret" was no secret since 1982, and was one of hushed failures KGB.yYa to this I have not the slightest relationship.
- It is known, Vadim Viktorovich, your grandfather was shot "by the KGB." You have tried to find out how this tragedy occurred?
- My grandfather, a teacher, in the 36th year working at the elevator accountant. Early in the morning to go fishing. Grandma fried fish, went to work in the school. Came - pan with the fish barely begun, there is no grandfather. They took, therefore, directly from the table. And he has sunk into oblivion. No one ever saw him no more.
I was flipping through his "work": an ordinary folder, greyish cover. And charged the usual English and Japanese spy, a member of the monarchist conspiracy headed by Prince Volkonsky. Each response is copied exactly the question of interrogation:
- Do you plead guilty to the creation of a terrorist organization?
- Yes, I plead guilty to the creation of a terrorist organization.
- You said he wanted to blow up the elevator?
- Yes, I admit that I wanted to blow up the elevator, and the like ..
And under each interrogation leaf - signature. And my grandfather was a calligraphy; I have seen the signature sheets for questioning on what not similar: like a cockroach ran. July 27, he was arrested on 27 August 1937, he was shot.
Now it recognized that he, like millions of others, just shot "for the account."
- At the same time you said that you were against the dissolution of the KGB ...
- No relation innocently killed by the former regime fate of millions do not have to question - whether or not to maintain the security services in the country after August 1991. The answer could be only one: to save. We`re not Lithuania, Czech Republic, and not even the GDR. Union, even weakened coup, remained a great nuclear power, with the most powerful military-industrial complex, and many others that should reliably protect from, say, a foreign interest. But other intelligence agencies, besides the KGB, we did not have and could not be.
The challenge was to maintain the professionals and deideologize KGB. But this requires political will of society and the state, not the KGB, which worked very different people. We needed a differentiated approach, rather than indiscriminate crackdown. Deideologization was supposed to be the process for many years, and not a momentary act. And it can not happen in isolation from the formation of a new social consciousness. How would the government not to flirt with the "siloviki", the dominant sentiment they will still be the mood of society.
- As far as I know, Elena Bonner was in the Lubyanka - looking for the work of his father and then shot by Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov. It was with you?
- Yes, I remember it well. I must say that I just lied, saying that Sakharov was not the case and there. I had to fire the boss who lied. Case Sakharov was, but it burned down - it has an appropriate act. Something, of course, destroyed, without any registration, so you should, unfortunately, remain. Then, however, found koe-kakie materials related to Sakharov, it seems, the manuscript of his book, Solzhenitsyn`s letter found. Why hide the fact that it is not necessary to hide?
- Remember in the "Gulag Archipelago" Solzhenitsyn`s phrase about the stairs in the inner prison in the Lubyanka, gouged stages, which took place thousands, including Tukhachevsky, Bukharin? You were in the prison?
- No wasn `t. You can having a bit of imagination to imagine what they saw and heard those walls. There, at the Lubyanka, the museum should be done - and it`s not just my opinion. In the first days of this idea I heard from officers who work there.
- Why did you find yourself out of work - first in the Interior Ministry, and then in the KGB?
- The KGB and the Interior Ministry are completely different organization. It does not become the Union. It does not become need of the Inter-republican Security Service and even more so in its chief. And I have removed from the Ministry of Internal Affairs Gorbachev. As I invited and exposed. It is not only in Russia today, but in the past had great significance in the Union of intrigue, whispers, media campaigns in the "personnel work." For objectivity`s sake it should be said that after the Bialowieza Forest, Yeltsin invited me and asked where I want to work. I replied: "Yesterday I worked in Gorbachev`s team and I can not jump from one orbital to give me time." This conversation took place in December 1991. Since then we have not met Boris Nikolayevich.
- What are you doing with that time? It took almost 6 years!
- Worked in the fund "Reform" Academician Shatalina. It was a wonderful man. He died. Without it, the work in the collection, I could not and left.
Fund "Reform" was one of the emerging civil society. Now, in my opinion, the process of formation of civil society in Russia has slowed. Democracy is impossible without a developed civil society. But even more, it is impossible without development, dynamic market economy. In a poor country, democracy - a utopia. I still believe that our failures, misfortunes - because of the fact that we have destroyed the economy. We do not reformed and destroyed. While the government will not build-up of production, there will be nothing! So it will look for someone to take, who would take away, to feed pensioners, army etc ....
Where to find if the production costs?
- Let`s go back a little bit ago. Your defeat in the elections for the presidency much you upset? Or are you aware that Yeltsin is stronger than all? Whether it is necessary, in your opinion, Russian President-intellectual?
- I have long forgotten about those choices. Of course, Boris Yeltsin was then the strongest of all. Russia does not need a leader, an intellectual and intelligent leader.
- You left the Shatalina Fund and is now out of business. I think you could very well become a deputy of the State Duma.
- "Become a" State Duma deputy is not so simple and not so cheap.
- You came specifically for the city to Moscow to bid farewell to Okudzhava. What place in your life are poetry, music, theater?
- Songs Okudzhava - this is my youth, and I said goodbye to her youth. But Okudzhava never die in me. I loved his songs from the first moment, as soon as they heard. His songs, his philosophy, his place in my life, and nothing can replace them. But poetry and music, but to my great regret, not theater, take in my life is a great place. Many, but not the main thing. (In his office Vadim Viktorovich, I saw a picture on an easel he wrote himself, and his maternal grandfather was a professional artist -.. VN).
- We have a paradoxical line of Okudzhava, "Give navlastvovatsya power-hungry heart`s content." How do you, a man wielding a lot of power, this line see the poet?
- I realize the irony of the poet not as a political council. There are plenty of power-hungry, which make it impossible in any case; God forbid that any Dzhugashvili again grabbed her. Many people can not stand the test of power, including the current Russian government. She often forgets that for which there is: itself serves; power for power. And if the power of the good people - another pair of shoes. I recently called me rector of the Kirov Medical Institute - found by the astronauts - and invites you to the 10th anniversary of the institute. Of course, they exaggerate my importance, but on the other hand, I do not want to be a helluva lot so falsely modest: about medical school, I walked past - sought and achieved. And now, thank God, has settled Institute, established: it was done for the people, they remember - and it`s nice that whatever you say. And there can not be said about the power wasted. And in 1985, I was purely "forcibly" opened in Kirov House Museum Vasnetsov. I just "get" area - the first secretary of the regional committee, was asked: "What do you want?" And I said: "House-Museum".
- That is, it was in favor of populist intellectuals?
- You can call it so, if you will. Here in Moscow, I do not feel the intelligentsia. The show on TV any party, kisses, ceremony, the 50th anniversary, and so on. In Kirov intelligentsia - really community minded: teachers, doctors, poets. And what sort of artists! When I saw 15 thousand paintings, hanging in store, as the skins of sheep - one after the other, I responded to the request of the intelligentsia to build a museum. And I went to the State Planning Commission, and opened for the construction of the title. Minister of Culture, who came to the opening of the museum, said that it is - the only museum built in poslezastoynye years.
- I asked you about the family, but for some reason you spoke only about the parents and their parents.
- I have two sons and three daughter - the youngest son of divorced. Children better than me adapt to this life. Junior graduated from the law faculty of Moscow State University, works in a bank. A senior less fortunate, that there went out was in my footsteps, becoming a builder, then he worked in the KGB - even before I got there. And the first thing I did, taking advantage of his official position, the KGB fired him because he filed a report for a long time, but it would not fire. Now it is more -less arranged.
- Compatible Do you think politics with morality?
- Of course, compatible. If a person is honest if he has a conscience, some moral brakes, its morality does not depend on the place of work. You can also ask if compatible with the morality of commerce or journalism? How do you think?